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Alex welcome to the podcast hey Jake thanks for having me that’s my pleasure um okay simple
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question to kick us off and it can take us in all sorts of different directions but what is it that
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you’re working on at the moment that you’re most excited about oh so actually um recently I’ve just
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started working with the Bitcoin Collective here in the UK which is kind of like um founded by
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jordan walker and they they did the first major uk bitcoin conference and so i recently joined the
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team working with jordan and and jez and what we’re doing at the moment is is really quite
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exciting in terms of pushing businesses into bitcoin or not necessarily pushing businesses
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into bitcoin but pushing bitcoin within normal everyday businesses and helping them understand
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how Bitcoin can basically benefit their business
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and help stabilize their balance sheet
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and all sorts of things like that,
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which most businesses don’t even know
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that they can actually hold Bitcoin.
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So it’s quite exciting.
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Absolutely.
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And okay.
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And so what does the average customer look like
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in that sense?
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So, and I’m totally with you.
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It’s like a lot of people don’t even realize
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that Bitcoin’s an option.
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And not only is it an option,
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it’s actually extremely viable option
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for lots of different reasons, not just having a store of value
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on the balance sheet of a company that’s very effective,
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but also taking payments and finding extra customers
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because there’s a whole marketplace of people
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that want to use Bitcoin businesses.
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Let’s pretend I’m someone coming to the Bitcoin Collective.
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I’m like, oh, like how can I incorporate Bitcoin?
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What do I look like?
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What kind of business have I got?
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And let’s start there because this is fascinating.
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yeah so i mean it’s all very new at the moment we’re doing a conference later this week uh in
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derby and um so we’ve got liz truss the ex prime minister coming yeah and peter mcormack so like
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quite quite a few big names in in the uk scene and um but yeah it’s not really
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in terms of the people we’ve been speaking to at the moment it’s not necessarily
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normal businesses that don’t know anything about bitcoin it’s more bitcoiners who have a business
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and they’re talking to us i’m like i would never knew that i could own bitcoin with my business
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it’s conversations like that and yeah so what we’re doing now is trying to basically tap into
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that and show more businesses that it’s something that you can do it’s not illegal it’s possibly a
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good idea and there are ways to use it to your advantage cool i i must say i saw this trend
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to some extent i was involved with the bitcoin mentor um when it first launched in australia
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shout out to dale who carried that on um didn’t work out for me personally but that process was
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really interesting working with mike and ben in canada and it’s like where your mind goes your
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money follows and many people are doing that on a personal level but then it’s like well actually
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they’re already running companies or they’re employees in businesses it’s like well hang on
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and you become what’s like the gatekeeper to the bitcoin world for a traditional business and you go
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okay well this is working really well on my personal pnl how can i impact it everywhere else
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and so Alex that’s really cool so is is that now full-time you’re working in Bitcoin?
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Yes yeah pretty much yeah. Okay cool yeah because I heard you say previously when I was watching
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some of your content that you had a day job and that you were doing your content on the side
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what was that and this is always a really fun transition to talk through with people it’s like
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okay you obviously really passionate about Bitcoin but like how do you get involved and how do you
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habit as your day job so run me through like where you’ve been and and how you’ve managed to go
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through those steps yeah i don’t know it’s all been a bit of a whirlwind i don’t know how i’ve
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ended up where i where i have it’s it’s one of those i have imposter syndrome most of the time
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okay but um so i’m i’ve just turned 30 recently um and i was one of those classic kids that
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went to went to school didn’t know what to do finished school was kind of put down the route
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of going to university again still didn’t know what i wanted to do didn’t really have any
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particular passion or anything like that didn’t exactly know what to pursue so ended up doing
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something completely with well something that really isn’t of any interest to me so i was a
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landscape architect um basically yeah completely i think the logic at the time was oh maybe i could
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design skate parks that’d be cool yeah nice um but yeah looking back like i should have given
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everything a lot more thought before jumping in but here’s what it is you can’t take anything back
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just got to keep pushing forward um yeah so i did that wasn’t particularly enamored with it
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and just followed it through got a degree and was like okay well i better use the degree it’s
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probably not going to help me get another job because it’s so niche so i did that and um just
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basically worked worked a job as a landscape architect for about six years maybe six and a
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half years almost exactly at the same time of starting that i was like i need a side hustle
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and uh i’d been investing in the stock market uh since i was about 17 when i was still at school
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i’m just like my dad showing me things and then just sort of running with it
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and um yeah at that point i was like well i know a fair amount about investing so
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started a youtube channel talking about really basic investing stuff compound interest and
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investing in index funds or maybe not or whatever whatever it is and
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yeah so then I was doing that on the sidelines and I was one of those people that heard about
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Bitcoin I was like nah this is just a load of rubbish because I had one friend no exactly it’s
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like I was just so indoctrinated by you need a business that obviously businesses make sense
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they make money and then they pay profits to their shareholders makes sense it’s like why would
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i want something that does nothing or something that i just don’t understand because to be fair
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i just didn’t do the research and i had a friend that was um bugging me to buy some bitcoin um i
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eventually did just before uh the it must have been about 2021 before ftx blew up probably about
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nice six months on the way down baby oh yeah so that was my first real step into bitcoin
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i just bought a very speculative speculative position and then i heard about block fi i was
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like okay awesome so i’ll put my tiny amount of bitcoin and i bought ethereum as well at the time
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and so i put all of it into block fi and then the whole thing collapsed with ftx so i lost
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all of that and um so that must have been november 22 i think and then it kind of took me a couple of
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months to regather myself it’s like what have i done just feeling uh sorry for myself and just
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feeling like an idiot and um yeah so it’s the start of the new year that i just eventually
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started learning about bitcoin i was like i wanted to work out what had gone wrong
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and through that learning listening to podcasts i just came to the conclusion that most people do
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that bitcoin has value it is money um and it was a long long slow process so it’s about
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six months to a year of just constant listening to podcasts not really understanding everything
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just trying to take on as much information as possible and it kind of opened pandora’s box and
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made me realize i don’t know anything about money i’ve been playing games in the stock market looking
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for percentage gains but like it means nothing because your money’s being debased faster than
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the rate that you’re making returns so yeah it’s just a kind of oh shit moment for me and
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it kind of changed everything i was like oh i just if you feel like everything you’ve been taught is
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just a lie and yeah from that point onwards it was just sort of keep going down the bitcoin rabbit
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hole went to my first conference met jack mallers and all sorts of other huge names in bitcoin and
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i was just like this is insane like i’m how am i surrounded by these people just in with a
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conference of less than 500 people and you go up and speak to someone and they all have the time to
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talk to you and they want to know about what you’re doing and it’s like these people are just
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the nicest people i’ve ever met genuine super intelligent super switched on and
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they just seem to genuinely care and i just felt like that moment was one of the points where i was
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like this is like this is where all of the best people are and i just want to be around them
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and it’s a it’s a cool feeling isn’t it yeah you go oh what are they doing this feels different
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yeah completely and not to hijack your story Alex but just so much of that resonates with me in terms
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of suddenly things just start to make sense you’re like oh hang on what what do you mean there’s
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there’s an option that says you can just save money and what do you mean saving and investing
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aren’t the same thing what are you talking about you have to invest it’s like no no no there’s this
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whole school of economics school the Austrian school of economics that happily explains to you
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what money is and whoa it’s just this massive moment i agree we’ve got lots in common i’m going
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to dig through all of this alex wind the clock back though i’d love to know so dad was like mate
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get into the stock market how did he know about the stock market and what were you guys investing
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in at the time and what kind of analysis were you doing on on different things yeah so he
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i think so when my dad was in probably about my age he basically started investing his own money
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when not many people would do that most people were like trusting
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financial advisors yeah yeah and he he just started doing it i don’t actually know why
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um but he eventually i can’t exactly remember the story but um he got some payout or something that
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went into his pension and it was one of those schemes where you get a big payout and it goes
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into a pension scheme and he decided to take it for himself to manage rather than letting it touch
0:11:31
this scheme and he invested all the money himself and i think it was probably one of the best
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decisions he made um and yeah so then when i was growing up um when i was still at school he just
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sort of thought that i might be interested in it so i started talking to me about it
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showed me a few things and it wasn’t investing in any individual companies um it was just
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um what they called it’s been such a long time ago since i’ve invested in the stock market i’m
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kind of forgetting it all but uh i think his main thing like passive passive investing like
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investing in indexes and things like that yeah no so it wasn’t that it was um investment trusts
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so they’re actively managed but not um not open-ended funds okay um so yeah and it was
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just basically finding winners in the uk mainly so there are a couple uh i mean in a way though
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it doesn’t really matter what that specific use case was to be honest if you can’t remember don’t
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don’t stress it’s more just like getting a flavor for things it’s like oh okay this is something you
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could point your energy and attention at um and then how it evolves because like the idea of a
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landscape architect who’s investing it’s like that’s fucking niche but there’s probably a lot
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of landscape architects out there but how many of them on the side are thinking about these other
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areas that you had an interest in and i always love that how we don’t really realize but we’re
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all extremely unique because we all have these different life experiences that blend together
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to make us who we are.
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And we’re all totally different.
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What I love doing is learning from them.
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And to only be 30 now is great
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in that you’ve already figured all this stuff out.
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There’ll be people in their 40s and 50s
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that haven’t asked the simple questions
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that you’ve been able to ask.
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And that’s why I also always say
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that information travels unfairly through markets.
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Like we are bloody lucky
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to be having this conversation right now
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in the knowledge that actually
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you don’t need to invest in investment trusts any longer.
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You don’t have to take the counterparty risk.
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You don’t have to trust a financial advisor.
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You don’t even need a pension fund.
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You just got to just buy some of the stuff called Bitcoin.
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100%.
0:13:53
Another thing that you mentioned, Alex,
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that I’d love to chime off though is then,
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so you mentioned, you had this point where you’re like,
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oh, I’ve been lied to.
0:14:04
what what are you referring to when you you reference that and how did it feel
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well it’s it’s one of those things it’s it’s one small part so i kind of
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bit learning about bitcoin taught me about money and i didn’t i didn’t understand money
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i then read um lynn olden’s book broken money yeah it’s brilliant yeah great book and
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it’s just going through all of that makes you realize how much you don’t know and i’ve always
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been one of those people that i was an infuriating child at school because
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i wouldn’t get into massive trouble but if i didn’t understand the logic behind a rule
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i wouldn’t i wouldn’t follow it so i was just always questioning stuff and if i could understand
0:14:57
how it works then sure that makes sense i’ll do that but like i was constantly being told to tuck
0:15:03
my shirt in or something like that it’s like but but why what why does it make any difference to you
0:15:07
that doesn’t make any sense to me and and then it’s kind of the same sort of because i’ve had
0:15:14
that sort of mentality to things i’ve always kind of questioned a lot of things and then
0:15:18
learning about money seeing that everything that you’ve sort of been spoon-fed isn’t actually the
0:15:26
case and that actually questioning things is the the best thing to do to understand how things work
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and so yeah i’m kind of rambling but that realization with money sort of started breaking
0:15:41
everything else down and it’s like okay how does everything else work so the money isn’t what we’ve
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been told it was and then that’s made me think about everything else so i’m now questioning food
0:15:52
and like most bitcoiners do it’s like okay just because the food is sold in the supermarket
0:15:57
on the food shelf that doesn’t mean it’s actually food it’s probably 90 plastic or something like
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that i mean obviously that’s not the case but i mean it’s not too far wrong with all the chemicals
0:16:09
they put in and it’s just you just believe that the people in charge have your best interests at
0:16:15
heart and for me learning about bitcoin and then realizing how the world actually works
0:16:21
was that sort of complete breakdown in my trust in all systems yeah hang on a second so
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if the money’s not true what else do i know that someone wants me to know
0:16:39
yeah or why or the simple question like why do i know what i know like how how how conditioned am i
0:16:47
and you don’t we’ll probably never have an answer in some ways but um i’d love to hear more about
0:16:55
what like specifically what was it about money that you didn’t understand like some of the real
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kind of aha moments where you’re like oh that actually doesn’t make that i’m not tucking my
0:17:05
shirt in here mate that doesn’t make sense yeah so i was always um i was always a saver when i was
0:17:14
when I was younger,
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I was always really good at saving money.
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And I understood interest
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and that the banks pay you interest or whatever.
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But I never understood any of the intricacies about it.
0:17:28
So understanding that the bank doesn’t own your money,
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you deposit cash into the bank
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and they don’t actually have it.
0:17:36
That was a huge moment.
0:17:38
It’s like, well, okay.
0:17:40
Because I just assumed that they take your money,
0:17:42
they maybe lend it out.
0:17:43
and then because of that they can generate a return for you.
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But that’s not the case.
0:17:49
They just create infinite amounts of money whenever they want.
0:17:55
So that was a big one.
0:17:58
Oh, what else?
0:18:01
Understanding that money needs certain properties
0:18:04
to make it have any value.
0:18:07
And I didn’t know about the gold standard
0:18:10
until learning about Bitcoin.
0:18:11
so all of that was just a huge rabbit hole as well learning about gold and its scarcity properties
0:18:18
and coming off the gold standard and how that we’re all just using paper money that is created
0:18:26
out thinner and it is it is an extraordinary lie in many ways yeah you’re being paid in this paper
0:18:35
that’s valuable but why and i remember going once i’d sort of become a crazy bitcoiner i would go
0:18:44
into my day job and and obviously talk about your landscape out mate come on yeah i was i was trying
0:18:52
to like tell everyone you heard about this thing called bitcoin everyone’s just looking at me like
0:18:58
you are just mental and i’m like but if you just dollar cost average like a tiny bit blah blah blah
0:19:04
blah blah and uh i just remember getting a comment back like i’ll stick to my real money thanks and i
0:19:10
just thought yeah well this is exactly it this i was that person and we just need to try and get
0:19:16
more people to realize this the huge ponzi scheme that we’re all a part of but somehow that’s where
0:19:25
um podcasts you already touched on this like that’s where the conferences are just so powerful
0:19:32
as an experience because you you run down this rabbit hole and you’re like oh my god there’s
0:19:36
other people talking about this stuff and you can find them online in the depths of god knows where
0:19:41
but you can find them and then you go to a physical event and you’re like oh my god these are probably
0:19:47
some of the most positive fittest smartest people i’ve ever seen in one room and there’s a very
0:19:54
healthy appetite for risk for let’s say not tucking the shirt in and going well what are
0:20:04
you talking about like why would i do that um and i it’s taught me so much as well whoa and so as a
0:20:12
yeah landscape architect i think i’d put that into the bracket of an interesting business in
0:20:17
the sense that people are always going to need that service so if you were a landscape architect
0:20:23
and you did get into Bitcoin,
0:20:25
one of the better approaches is often actually continue
0:20:28
with your area of expertise and DCA.
0:20:32
So out of interest, were you just like,
0:20:34
I have to work in this thing full time.
0:20:36
I’m not interested in landscape architecture at all.
0:20:40
Because most people that I meet,
0:20:42
when they fall down the Bitcoin rabbit hole,
0:20:44
there’s not a huge amount of disposable capital
0:20:46
sitting around to like reallocate supposedly.
0:20:49
It’s just that every month I get paid.
0:20:51
It’s like, okay, well, every Monday,
0:20:52
just pump as much into Bitcoin as you can.
0:20:55
And I now know, I can think on the top of my head,
0:20:57
like four or five characters that I met at Bitcoin meetups
0:21:00
now five years ago who were accountants
0:21:03
or engineers of some form, electricians,
0:21:06
and they’re now working for themselves,
0:21:08
either traveling or setting up their own things
0:21:10
because they DCA’d in Bitcoin for a cycle and a half.
0:21:14
It works, essentially.
0:21:17
Yeah, you just were fed up as a landscape architect, perhaps?
0:21:20
because I still think that’s a very valid strategy.
0:21:23
So continue doing what you’re doing,
0:21:24
but incorporate Bitcoin into that
0:21:26
and your options grow essentially.
0:21:30
Yeah, definitely.
0:21:31
If I was passionate about that industry,
0:21:34
I probably would have stayed.
0:21:35
But it was one of those things.
0:21:38
I was just, I never enjoyed it.
0:21:41
Every, I was always just sort of turning up
0:21:46
because I didn’t know what else.
0:21:48
Good on you for recognizing that though,
0:21:50
because also like a lot of people don’t they’ll just continue in autopilot yeah but i mean i was
0:21:56
constantly looking over the years like what is my exit strategy from this and i just couldn’t work
0:22:00
it out and yeah bitcoin just sort of it was a bit of an accident really because i just started
0:22:11
making videos about it because obviously i was making videos about investing and then i felt
0:22:16
like a complete fraud to carry on making videos about investing so obviously everything just
0:22:21
turned bitcoin focused and then i met a bunch of really interesting people and made some really
0:22:28
good connections just from doing that and so it it almost seemed like a mistake to not give up my previous job because I was ending up You were wasting your time
0:22:43
Yeah. And I was able to network and meet loads of other people and actually build some really
0:22:48
good connections. And I just thought it was a good opportunity to move at the time that I did.
0:22:56
And yeah, it’s one of those things I always think if I was passionate about a nine to five job versus starting a business, you’d probably be better off just sticking at the nine to five job unless you are really certain on your business.
0:23:14
Because if you’re just stacking Bitcoin, you’re probably going to do very well over a five year period.
0:23:20
but the risk of starting a business in this economy is yeah the odds are pretty against you
0:23:27
especially in the uk um so i kind of agree with what you’re saying it’s yeah there’s nothing wrong
0:23:33
with sticking to a nine-to-five just for me it was it was just uh too much really well and that’s
0:23:41
the fun bit right it’s it’s your life you do whatever the fuck you want and basically anyone
0:23:47
that ever gives you advice is giving you advice based on what worked for them and there’s absolutely
0:23:54
no reason that it will work for you it just happened to work for them yeah so as much as i i
0:24:00
sometimes i love a good business book protect in particular like a good biography or whatever
0:24:06
like how did that person and that business become what it is today and you can go and read about it
0:24:12
and you’re like oh interesting like a great book i read from an investing perspective recently
0:24:17
was around the founder of SoftBank.
0:24:21
And basically Korean migrant in Japan
0:24:23
builds this massive tech business
0:24:25
and ends up funding some crazy bets
0:24:31
with the $100 billion VC fund that they set up.
0:24:37
And it was full of like Saudi investors
0:24:39
and just mental,
0:24:40
like how do you get into that position?
0:24:44
And people do, right?
0:24:45
they just take different step, different step, different step.
0:24:47
And what they would recommend to you to do isn’t necessarily right for your
0:24:51
personal situation.
0:24:53
And so making that call for yourself is always the key.
0:24:58
Yeah, so great.
0:24:59
So getting out of that done, making videos,
0:25:02
and this is something that I’m really passionate about too.
0:25:05
In fact,
0:25:06
we probably wouldn’t be talking if we weren’t both quote unquote content
0:25:09
creators.
0:25:10
So, and I like to think of it as being your own brand,
0:25:14
that there is literally no reason to stop anyone from putting content out like if you’ve got a
0:25:20
mobile phone you can make a video and you can post it and there’s obviously tons of nuance to like
0:25:25
how you do it and where you do it and what your strategy might be but um what you why did you start
0:25:31
creating content in the first place and when i had a flick through a youtube channel recently
0:25:36
it was so interesting that you had videos that were like five six years old but had nothing to
0:25:42
do with Bitcoin at all and then obviously Bitcoin’s become a big part of the journey you’ve been on
0:25:47
and in some ways it’s a really nice um kind of rear view mirror on the proof of work that you’ve
0:25:53
been through so why did you start making content and um you know what’s the fun part of it for you
0:26:00
yeah so I actually made videos when I was at school when I was like 14 15 16 me and my friends
0:26:10
used to make gaming videos and it yeah um it was kind of fun though I kind of felt like a little
0:26:19
entrepreneur because the whole goal was try and get monetized on YouTube and we ended up making
0:26:27
making a video that got like 800,000 views which at the time was wow was huge and um but then I
0:26:35
kind of was like i’m over this i’m going to uni i’m growing up and um just left it all and
0:26:42
i kind of always thought it was a fun thing to do i kind of enjoyed the sort of personal
0:26:48
creativity that you can have and so i kind of just wanted to do it while i was getting older
0:26:56
and then just finally pulled the trigger and was like okay i might make complete garbage content
0:27:02
but it’s gonna i’m not gonna enjoy sitting in front of a camera but it’ll be good to push
0:27:10
myself out of my comfort zone um it might make me better at public speaking that might be a win
0:27:16
and if all goes well um i might make some money so i kind of thought like yes it’s going to be a
0:27:23
lot of effort but even if it all goes horribly wrong i’m still potentially learning some skills
0:27:28
and so that was kind of the rationale for it and just trying to push myself to a point where
0:27:39
i’m not super comfortable and just try and create some things that um that i think will be helpful
0:27:47
and educational but and they clearly have been addicts i mean some of the traction that your
0:27:54
videos have got have been great plus i mean as we started the the the episode well when did you
0:28:02
start working with bitcoin collective have you actually even started or you just signed uh yeah
0:28:06
just the last couple of months yeah so you um do you think that opportunity would have arisen if
0:28:15
you hadn’t started creating content no that’s the amazing thing like absolutely not and before that
0:28:21
yeah like i’ve got a whole list of experience now that i would never have had if i didn’t decide to
0:28:29
make youtube videos about investing in the stock market or whatever it is and it’s just crazy
0:28:38
because that is literally the proof of work if you’re just showing you’re showing the world that
0:28:42
you’re committed to doing something you’re putting yourself out there and people do see it eventually
0:28:47
even though it feels like a long slog because I started six years ago but
0:28:51
well and that is I mean six years is a long time but I think what’s cool is it’s six years ago
0:28:59
what’s the right way of saying this sometimes it’s the journey not the destination yeah so
0:29:06
so actually you don’t necessarily need to know what the outcome has to be but just be comfortable
0:29:13
and the knowledge that you’re going somewhere interesting
0:29:15
and you didn’t even know that Bitcoin was interesting.
0:29:19
You didn’t know that you get a job in a Bitcoin company.
0:29:22
You didn’t know you’d be buying Bitcoin.
0:29:23
You didn’t know you’d be educating about Bitcoin,
0:29:24
but you started anyway six years ago.
0:29:29
Okay, so what would be some of the highlights that you’ve had
0:29:33
in terms of experiences because of putting yourself out there
0:29:37
and testing yourself?
0:29:38
oh um so yeah i mean last week with um with the bitcoin collective we were at the
0:29:48
uk’s largest business show i think at the excel center and we had to stand there talking to
0:29:56
entrepreneurs and business owners about bitcoin which is just kind of mind-blowing
0:30:02
and a few weeks before that i was invited by bitcoin policy uk to go and help them in in
0:30:10
liverpool at the labor party conference which again just completely bizarre thing for me it’s
0:30:16
like why am i being invited to this i’m not really political but this is really important work that
0:30:24
and yeah i’m i’m helping and it’s a great thing to be a part of and just jumping into all sorts of
0:30:33
strange pools of and networks interesting so so talk to me about that as an experience then so
0:30:40
the labor party conference is an annual get together of labor party followers or what even
0:30:47
is it and and the big and explain as well what bitcoin policy uk do and i’d be intrigued as to
0:30:54
how they’re funded because it’s very interesting to have i mean here and here in australia just
0:30:59
give you a brief bit of context of why i’m interested in this is the australian bitcoin
0:31:03
industry body that i know some of the guys that run that it’s essentially a uh a spokes
0:31:08
person for the bitcoin industry in australia so there’s bitcoin exchanges here there’s you know
0:31:14
bitcoin wallets here and there’s all sorts of stuff going on um but it’s a kind of you know
0:31:20
there’s a board, there’s a chairman, there’s a strategy behind, like, you know,
0:31:28
commenting on different policy that’s coming out of the Australian government, etc.
0:31:31
So, yeah, interesting.
0:31:33
Keep talking about the Labour Conference and also what Bitcoin Policy UK do.
0:31:38
Yeah, so I think it’s similar.
0:31:39
So it’s a think tank, I think is the phrase.
0:31:44
but they’re all basically volunteers
0:31:48
and just basically trying to
0:31:52
ensure that the UK government
0:31:55
puts in better policy for Bitcoin
0:31:58
and they write letters to the MPs
0:32:02
and try and just help boost the
0:32:06
what’s the word?
0:32:08
I’m kind of losing my train of thought
0:32:09
it would be to
0:32:12
to ensure that the Bitcoin network
0:32:17
has a official and professional voice
0:32:20
when discussing politics
0:32:23
or policy
0:32:25
what laws are you creating
0:32:27
how does that impact the Bitcoin industry
0:32:29
and it’s fascinating
0:32:32
Bitcoin doesn’t have a marketing department
0:32:34
if we were crypto podcasters
0:32:37
We’ll be being paid shit tons to promote whatever token that said crypto business had created and was pumping wherever they’re pumping it.
0:32:48
And the incentive is to ignore the design of the crypto token and to just spout whatever nonsense they’re asking you to talk about in favor of being paid.
0:33:00
Bitcoin can’t do that.
0:33:01
Like there is no way of paying a policy think tank to go to the UK government
0:33:06
and say, guys, go and lobby them and say,
0:33:10
we think that your new rules are a load of bullshit.
0:33:13
And that’s why it’s so crazy when you see things like Ripple in Washington,
0:33:17
DC doing whatever they’re doing.
0:33:19
It’s just nuts.
0:33:20
You start peeling away those layers.
0:33:22
But it’s really cool to see how it can be like totally free market, right?
0:33:27
It’s a think tank.
0:33:29
It’s self-funded.
0:33:30
there’s volunteers and they’re promoting a uh an algorithm slash protocol for money how cool is that
0:33:39
yeah and so at a conference for a political party i mean basically i imagine that’s just one massive
0:33:46
donations spin-up they’re basically just trying to get funding from people
0:33:52
yeah so it’s an annual event i think all of the major political parties do them
0:34:00
um but it’s just all the mps and politicians give speeches and a lot that it’s like a trade show in
0:34:11
a way so there’s lots of stands set up of businesses basically trying to lobby the politicians
0:34:17
in one way or another, trying to get funding for their projects
0:34:22
or trying to change policy and just try and talk to the right people
0:34:27
who they think might be able to make a difference.
0:34:29
And so I guess that’s kind of exactly the same as what we were doing,
0:34:33
just hoping and trying to speak to people within the government,
0:34:38
the active government, who might be able to take Bitcoin a bit more seriously
0:34:41
and at least listen, open their ears and hear what we have to say rather than just,
0:34:49
I mean, you mentioned Ripple.
0:34:50
I think last week there was, I think, one of the politicians who’s there at the moment
0:34:58
was meeting Ripple last week in Asia somewhere.
0:35:02
And it’s just like Bitcoin Policy UK have reached out to that specific person so many times
0:35:09
and got no response and it seems that the ripple just sort of chucks the money at her and she’s
0:35:17
like okay cool i’ll listen we’re now pushing forward innovation and payments it’s like no
0:35:22
but i mean talk about like tucking your shirt in it’s like that’s that’s bullshit everyone knows
0:35:27
it’s bullshit come on yeah um and so when you’re at that stand like interesting so did anyone pay
0:35:33
any attention or was it like this huge conference and like just no one’s even talking to the bitcoin
0:35:38
guys yeah no actually it was quite a busy stand there were lots of volunteers there um
0:35:45
and so we had a very busy stand because there were lots of of us there and i think because of
0:35:51
that lots of people coming up and they would see the words bitcoin thing bitcoin and there were
0:35:58
kind of a few scenarios it’d be like i do not like bitcoin so i’m going to go tell them that
0:36:03
i don’t like bitcoin and i’m going to go argue with them and tell them that they shouldn’t be
0:36:07
here and shouldn’t be talking about bitcoin because i know someone that’s been scammed
0:36:11
by bitcoin that’s usually what they’re saying and uh then there are some people that are secretly
0:36:17
curious and like oh yeah can i i’m from one of the other stands and i run a business and can i
0:36:23
secretly talk to you and i’ll take off my shirt just so look you can’t see it in my logo yeah
0:36:28
yeah exactly and there are quite a few of those and then there were just some people that seemed
0:36:35
interested that just didn’t really know much about it and then it’s a real mix but overall
0:36:42
the reception was really positive which i personally was quite surprised about
0:36:46
because i thought it was going to be just very very negative yeah you’re going to the lion’s
0:36:52
den in a sense it’s that it’s that obvious misalignment of incentive
0:36:58
in that the reason that Keynesianism has been so popular
0:37:06
is because monetary policy makers and political scientists
0:37:11
have been able to jump into bed together
0:37:13
and fund each other’s central planning, basically.
0:37:18
It’s like, you scratch my back, I’ll scratch your back,
0:37:21
and we can sell it to everyone for their greater good,
0:37:24
and we’ll socialize the losses on the back end.
0:37:26
and and it’s even even that phrase socializing the losses like when i first heard that i was like
0:37:33
what that’s like one of those things you touched on i think probably it’s like you’re listening to
0:37:36
podcasts you’re you’re feverish in terms of your your your consumption of this information around
0:37:42
this subject what is money and it’s like oh inflation is a stealth tax you know the first
0:37:47
time you hear that you’re like what what are you talking about no inflation is good inflation is how
0:37:54
the central bank keeps the whole economy going you’ve got to have about two percent and you find
0:38:00
yourself like literally repeating the shit that you were told and i you know wrote in a macroeconomics
0:38:05
exam at uni but who told you that well the guy that’s getting paid by the bloke that prints the
0:38:12
money hello and so i i wonder when going to conferences like that
0:38:20
you know how seriously can they really take bitcoin and it’s that process of like on the
0:38:27
one hand they just don’t understand it and if it took you and i multiple years of getting a bunch
0:38:33
of things together and realizing oh this is valuable then the average 60 year old labor mp
0:38:41
has got absolutely no idea what bitcoin is in terms of the threat to their funding
0:38:47
that they don’t understand that it’s going to obsolete central banks
0:38:50
and therefore it’s going to drastically reduce how government funds itself.
0:38:56
But also they’ll be so skeptical straight away, right?
0:38:59
It’s something new.
0:39:00
It’s like, this isn’t interesting.
0:39:03
Yeah.
0:39:04
Okay.
0:39:05
So was there anyone at that conference then that was of any importance,
0:39:10
do you think?
0:39:10
Or was it just punters just coming and having a chat?
0:39:12
because like how high can bitcoin get in conversations in government do we think like
0:39:18
you know the uk government’s as broke as anyone else yeah i think from i mean i wasn’t
0:39:27
able to see what everyone was doing all the time but um yeah sure from my experience it seemed like
0:39:33
it was not really people with a lot of say and there were some mps that came and had a picture
0:39:40
with the stand but it seemed like they were being sort of led around by their assistant like right
0:39:45
we need to go get a picture here here and they’re sort of just like oh my gosh yeah like politics
0:39:51
wow yeah yeah and so it’s more just everyday people really that we were talking to i felt like
0:39:59
um but yeah it’s funny because the whole ethos of labor is or was like socialist whereas
0:40:10
Bitcoin is almost the complete opposite.
0:40:13
Everything you get in Bitcoin world,
0:40:15
you have to put in work for and nothing’s redistributed.
0:40:18
So it’s complete opposite to the sort of ethos.
0:40:24
And yeah, so like it’s an uphill battle,
0:40:29
definitely speaking to the Labour Party for sure.
0:40:36
Very cool.
0:40:37
And so Alex, so in the months to come then,
0:40:39
And are you, is the Bitcoin Collective like specifically asking you to go out and create content on their behalf?
0:40:47
Or is it something that you’re just going to continue to do off your own bat?
0:40:51
Like what are your plans in terms of that?
0:40:54
No, so content wise, that’s all separate.
0:40:58
I’m just sort of joining the team to help try and build out the things that we’re working on.
0:41:05
um but yeah content wise i just need to try and get my ass in gear and keep pushing it out because
0:41:14
that’s the struggle just trying to manage it and as i’m sure you’re aware it’s just difficult to
0:41:19
try and keep it all going with content because you put out one thing one week but then you’ve
0:41:26
got to just keep it keep it all going keep the flywheel going well yeah i mean i must confess
0:41:32
in in my experience lately i’ve made a big change in how i’m doing it um so when i launched my
0:41:39
latest podcast in january i came kind of flying out the gates hired a guy as a producer hired a
0:41:45
guy as an editor which helped hugely to increase the volume of content i was able to get out
0:41:52
but i made a mistake in that i didn’t have a um a revenue plan in place necessarily and so
0:42:01
suddenly 10 months in I was like I’m carrying all this cost each month which is essentially
0:42:05
potential bitcoin um why and when I started looking seriously at like different revenue options
0:42:12
audience wasn’t nearly big enough to sell a sponsorship contract of any meaningful amount
0:42:17
and I’m very dubious of sponsorship contracts in general because you’re like who are these
0:42:23
companies like what are they actually doing and I I know and I won’t mention who any of these people
0:42:29
blah blah I’ve had conversations with other people who are already podcasting with successful channels
0:42:34
and they’re promoting businesses that they don’t like but they’ve got contracts in place with them
0:42:38
and that’s how the show works right you’ve got an advertising contract it’s like okay
0:42:44
that doesn’t make sense to me and I didn’t want to then equally go and create a a big coaching
0:42:50
program because I actually spend most of my day homeschooling my kids I just don’t have the time
0:42:55
to commit to 20 grand’s worth of coaching for someone
0:42:58
because you’ve got to fulfill this thing.
0:43:00
I’m like, shit, Jake,
0:43:02
you’ve really dug yourself a hole here, mate.
0:43:04
How are you going to get out of this?
0:43:06
And so I decided to go very lean
0:43:09
and really home in on what I care about,
0:43:12
which is then another problem in this space,
0:43:15
which is the platform risk.
0:43:16
And so this podcast, for example,
0:43:18
will only go out on RSS feeds and on NOSTA.
0:43:22
And I’m not even bothering with YouTube or X
0:43:24
or Instagram or anything going forwards,
0:43:27
which I’m actually really excited about.
0:43:29
It doesn’t make any sense to a traditional content lens,
0:43:35
which would be like just as many eyeballs
0:43:36
as you can possibly get and then sell sponsor contracts.
0:43:41
But I think it’ll be more fun for me.
0:43:43
And that’s basically just,
0:43:44
I’ll be doing a conversation a week
0:43:46
that I produce and publish myself.
0:43:48
And that way it should be easier
0:43:50
to keep the momentum going.
0:43:53
because I always get burnt out.
0:43:56
Like the YouTube algorithm is a hungry bitch.
0:43:59
And it’s like, you know, one video is gone.
0:44:02
Next, next, next.
0:44:04
And I guess I personally reached a point.
0:44:06
It’s like, why am I doing this?
0:44:07
I want to do it to have fun,
0:44:09
to have interesting and sophisticated conversations.
0:44:12
I don’t want to do it so that YouTube wins.
0:44:17
So, yeah, I mean, does any of that resonate at all?
0:44:20
Maybe you should make a long form podcast, Alex.
0:44:23
yeah possibly i’ve thought about it but i’m i’m always worried about just trying to spin too many
0:44:31
plates at one time absolutely and you wouldn’t want to do that i wouldn’t suggest that yeah
0:44:35
yeah but i think that’s really cool that you’re doing it all on nosda because ultimately that
0:44:43
that’s feeding into what you believe in and the world that you want to live in i assume and
0:44:50
Absolutely.
0:44:51
Yes.
0:44:52
Yeah.
0:44:52
And it’s just,
0:44:53
if you’re sticking to the mainstream platforms,
0:44:56
you’re just feeding it.
0:44:58
And like,
0:45:01
ultimately we’re all losing if we keep these things alive.
0:45:04
Like YouTube is,
0:45:06
yeah.
0:45:06
Like you said,
0:45:06
the algorithm is just ridiculous.
0:45:09
It’s,
0:45:09
I think it changed recently because it used to be very different from my experience And now it like it doesn really matter if you have a following or not some videos will just do really well some
0:45:22
videos will do terribly and yeah trying to navigate all of that and it just takes you away
0:45:31
from the reason you were doing it in the first place which is to create something that you think
0:45:35
is important and interesting yeah that was what I think annoyed me the most actually was you you
0:45:41
I found that I’d suddenly got myself to a place where I was I was trying to win the game
0:45:47
the algorithm game I said no Jake that’s not why you started this process and I’d also wrapped it
0:45:53
up in this whole like oh you can build a massive business out of this you might be able to on a
0:45:58
long enough time horizon but that wasn’t again that wasn’t why I started it so um yeah it’s it’s
0:46:05
funny that isn’t it so and just to to ask some more detail on how you create your videos Alex
0:46:11
because I really enjoyed some of the ones that I’ve watched like are using AI for example like
0:46:17
helping to write scripts and do better hooks and titles and do you do do you just riff about what
0:46:25
you’re finding interesting or like how do you structure your episodes and things like that
0:46:28
yeah i don’t use ai as much as i should um i’m uh i don’t think that’s a bad thing by the way
0:46:36
yeah people know or to my experience you can tell right i started getting for example emails
0:46:44
from random addresses which really detail about like content that i’ve put out in the past
0:46:51
but there’s just no way it wasn’t written by computer oh yeah yeah i mean it’s like no you
0:46:56
didn’t go and read that on on my article or listen do you know what I mean so I think in some ways
0:47:01
it’s not a bad thing um so do you do script at all though or how do you do it yeah so I’m a massive
0:47:10
victim of my own frugality like I really struggle spending money on anything so I do everything
0:47:18
myself and cool i use a little bit of uh ai for like proofreading scripts and how are you
0:47:27
structuring things and title suggestions but i pretty much pretty much come up with the ideas
0:47:34
and everything myself and spend spend time scripting and everything but just sort of run
0:47:39
it through almost like a spell check and just to save myself time but yeah i mean people are using
0:47:47
it for basically everything like for video editing and all of that but i still use normal editing
0:47:54
software which i’ve tried to like um test out which is actually faster and i found that going
0:48:00
the traditional method made no difference to my my time um but yeah always that strange fear
0:48:09
though isn’t there an extent like okay ai edit this episode for me what’s it cut out yeah i don’t
0:48:16
know and and equally like and i could be wrong here but i don’t listen to podcasts any faster
0:48:26
than 1x generally speaking i don’t listen to any content faster than what it’s created at
0:48:31
and that’s because i believe that i get more from the conversation if i listen to it properly
0:48:37
and you get all the context which gives you then you know if you’ve gone through like two three
0:48:42
hour long podcasts and you’re like at the end they’re talking about something that actually
0:48:45
makes the whole thing make sense but ah that’s why i’ve just spent all my time listening to this
0:48:51
which if you overly edit things or you speed it up too much you don’t catch that
0:48:56
um now that opens up obviously another conversation like in the future with ai the way it’s going
0:49:03
every single problem you face you can within a matter of seconds ask a bespoke question for the
0:49:09
problem that you’re in and a solution why will you do all this passive consumption of content
0:49:16
like you’ve already mentioned you listen to tons of podcasts to kind of upskill like we may not ever
0:49:21
need to do that again so i wonder if that market demand might diminish i don’t know but sorry i
0:49:26
cut you off Alex you’re going to say something no definitely i’m just thinking about what you’re
0:49:29
saying so please i i sometimes get comments on my videos and it’s like oh how do i do this
0:49:35
in terms of how do i buy bitcoin through this blah blah blah i’m having issues with this it’s
0:49:39
like you don’t need me to make a video you can just ask chat gpt and it’ll literally give you
0:49:44
the answer and it’s kind of exactly that it’s but i guess there is the market for it still because
0:49:52
people want trust a human maybe a bit more maybe not i’m not i don’t know what it is there may be
0:49:58
something about just watching a video you can just switch off your brain you don’t have to read
0:50:03
as much and it feels easier like if i wanted to learn how to buy bitcoin for the first time
0:50:10
i could ask chat gbt but i’m not i’m dyslexic so reading has never been it’s never come easy to me
0:50:18
so seeing a whole script of how to do it isn’t going to be as easy as watching a youtube video
0:50:23
where i can see someone going through it um it depends on how you learn doesn’t it yeah and i’m
0:50:32
very much a visual learner and i’m sure there must be lots of people out there who are similar
0:50:36
yeah it’s so true isn’t it the the comments yeah how many of those comments could just be pumped
0:50:45
into an ai and therefore you don’t need to interact at the same time though i would i said
0:50:52
i think this is where bitcoin’s an interesting one because i saw a really good post recently on
0:50:56
that was a guy basically saying look bitcoin podcasts are fucking pointless bitcoin commerce
0:51:01
is a fucking pointless in fact bitcoin is really just not doing very well right now um just look at
0:51:07
how ai has been completely like it just they created a product they made it better they made
0:51:13
it better they made it better it’s now everyone’s using it all the time it doesn’t have a conference
0:51:17
doesn’t have a fucking podcast everyone’s just doing it that’s a fucking amazing product launch
0:51:23
you’re like i kind of get your point i’ll push back one i get lots of value from podcasts two i
0:51:30
I get people contacting me the whole time saying they’ve really valued my
0:51:32
podcast. So good for you, mate. You can have that opinion,
0:51:36
but in my opinion, you’re wrong.
0:51:40
So yeah, there’s obviously two sides to this camp, isn’t there?
0:51:43
It’s like the people are like, look, mate, just ask chat GPT.
0:51:45
But when it comes to your money,
0:51:47
you need to trust what you’re doing and having someone who’s already been
0:51:52
through the process you want to go through is key.
0:51:55
And that’s why you get all of these interesting consultancy businesses in and
0:51:59
around bitcoin that have popped up because it’s like hang on a second i adopted bitcoin myself
0:52:03
these are all the steps i went through this was shit i fucked this one up don’t do that do this
0:52:09
pay me a grand for four hours of work and you miss all the bullshit and it makes sense and if you fall
0:52:16
too far down the rabbit hole of using ai for everything when it comes to your money you’re
0:52:19
basically falling into the same fiat trap as before where you’re just sort of trusting that
0:52:24
it’s giving you the right information whereas and there’s all that stuff with it hallucinating and
0:52:29
things like that yeah actually this makes me think recently i did some research around
0:52:35
personal finance and i i’ve had it on my mind for probably two or three years like a book
0:52:43
i really want to write a book and i haven’t done it so jake stop fucking talking about writing and
0:52:47
just get on and do it is basically the situation but um amazingly all of the most popular books in
0:52:54
personal finance none of them mentioned bitcoin you look the top 10 bestsellers in personal finance
0:53:00
it’s like literally none of them one of which i read recently which is called the psychology of
0:53:04
money and their solution to the wealth problem is passive investing via index trackers and
0:53:14
government bonds and you’re just like that’s fucking stupid look at this look at the counterparty
0:53:22
risk look at the purchasing power erosion look at the real inflation rate i disagree and that’s
0:53:29
kind of what ai is like you know you go to ai and say how do i look after my money and it’s more than
0:53:34
likely going to be like okay let me scan the top 10 best sellers in personal finance oh well they’re
0:53:38
all talking about the 60 40 stock bond portfolio that’s worked incredibly well as interest rates
0:53:44
have gone down and down and down and down and down for 50 years and they printed tons of money
0:53:48
but like bitcoin is still so small that there’s not many people out there talking about it and i
0:53:54
think that’s possibly where um having not that it’s a real connection but like people i i’m
0:54:02
speaking for myself i have podcasts that i like i feel like i’m almost friends with some of these
0:54:07
people because i’ve listened to hours and hours you mentioned peter mccormack for example i’ve
0:54:12
got a tracker somewhere for every piece of bitcoin content i’ve been through and i met pete when he
0:54:17
did the uh cheat code conference in sydney i was the mc and i went and met a bunch of people uh in
0:54:25
person which was cool and in the pub after i was like let me figure it out and i said i’ve i’ve
0:54:30
listened to like 82 hours of what bitcoin did which i could tell from my spreadsheet and he was
0:54:36
like that’s not flex i was like what do you mean he’s like mate i’ve done like 800 episodes
0:54:40
fair enough and and some people have listened to all of them right and and in that sense you are
0:54:49
kind of like friends with these people um so yeah okay from where i’m sitting i’m very confident
0:54:55
there’s a place for content with people in the future yeah no but it’s a really interesting one
0:55:01
isn’t it that’s like and that’s really what bitcoin does it questions what you do with your time
0:55:06
like are you pointing your attention in the right direction um and so speaking of which like so what
0:55:12
what’s got you most excited then about the next kind of 12 months and the the route you’re now
0:55:17
taking um honestly it’s just really exciting to be being able to work full-time in bitcoin
0:55:26
yeah cool because the first conference i went to i felt like a fraud i felt really
0:55:31
odd about going to it because it’s like i’ve not been in bitcoin for very long i don’t work in
0:55:36
bitcoin i’m just interested and don’t really know how everything works i think at that point i didn’t
0:55:42
really understand what gdp meant i was like this doesn’t make sense like try and make it make sense
0:55:47
in my brain when was that alex that was two years ago that was cheat code yeah cool in the uk that’s
0:55:56
that’s what’s fun though is look how much progress you’ve made in two years yeah and but speaking to
0:56:01
other bitcoiners they also have similar imposter syndrome i’ve from my experience and it’s like
0:56:07
actually we’re all just people we’re all just people who are interested in bitcoin it doesn’t
0:56:12
matter if you know how every intricate detail works it doesn’t matter if you know as much as
0:56:16
this person it’s just we’re all interested and we all look at things from different angles
0:56:21
and we all have value to offer.
0:56:24
Yeah.
0:56:26
But yeah, I guess it’s just, yeah, working on this
0:56:32
with the Bitcoin Collective
0:56:34
and hopefully we’ll have a bull market.
0:56:40
Yeah.
0:56:41
I mean, that’s a tricky one right now,
0:56:43
the price action, fucking hell.
0:56:45
Yeah.
0:56:45
Which way are we going to go?
0:56:46
Well, that is really a case of time will tell.
0:56:49
We’ll have to wait and see.
0:56:51
I’m intrigued a bit more about the Bitcoin Collective because I don’t know much about it until today.
0:56:56
So it’s essentially a consulting business that helps businesses incorporate Bitcoin.
0:57:06
Yes, it’s all very, very new at the moment, but it’s basically educational.
0:57:12
So if people want to learn about Bitcoin, it’s…
0:57:19
Sorry, let me try that again.
0:57:22
That’s all right.
0:57:23
It’s early in the morning, so it’s struggling a little bit.
0:57:29
But basically, yeah, it’s educational.
0:57:31
So just trying to be that point of call for businesses who are interested in Bitcoin,
0:57:36
but don’t know how to get it on their balance sheet,
0:57:40
don’t know how to how to buy it and don’t know how to accept it it’s just been that point of call
0:57:46
and we can connect connect you with all the right places and experts nice and and it’s there’s a
0:57:54
business side involved in here in australia as well called the bitcoin advisor for a bit
0:57:57
and oh yes yeah and like bitcoin mentor in a way the the regularity with which you see a finance
0:58:06
broker or a financial advisor on the high street who are punting fiat loans or one percent
0:58:14
discretionary advisor type setups that is the frequency with which you will see a bitcoin
0:58:20
consultant in the future we’re just not even close to being there yet like you’re lucky to
0:58:25
find like one company that’s doing okay in one country let alone like every single high street
0:58:31
and that that is in a sense of a reflection as to how early we actually are because basically no
0:58:40
one knows what bitcoin is and you know well let’s go back to talking about the price right now so
0:58:46
you know dipping down under 100 000 us dollars it’s now november of 2025 like the the four-year
0:58:53
cycle thesis is like well maybe that’s been and gone right 126k us that was the top there’s lots
0:59:00
of people that are now selling into what they think is the bear market coming and that could
0:59:06
be true but when you zoom out and you think about the fact that like every single high street is
0:59:12
going to have some kind of bitcoin advisor sitting on it like you could be very wrong there and
0:59:19
money printer gets switched on the whole cycle is actually pushed back to q1 q2 next year and we
0:59:24
we could easily have like what’s a 30 35 drawdown from 126k and it fucking rips to like two three
0:59:34
times where we are today i don’t know and that’s the fun part of of following it but how wild is
0:59:39
that to think there’s there’s going to be as many bitcoin consultants in the future as there are
0:59:46
currently financial advisors are there though because i’m not sure i’d agree with that because
0:59:55
will you need as many bitcoin advisors because some people will just it’ll just be money so
1:00:01
you’re just holding the money you don’t need great pushback you won’t need if i think about
1:00:07
my experience of kind of managing assets you have an annual get together with your financial advisor
1:00:13
who’s being paid 1% a year to allocate you into whatever.
1:00:17
You’re right.
1:00:18
With Bitcoin, it’s just money.
1:00:19
So it’s just savings.
1:00:21
And that human is automated away, essentially.
1:00:25
So the purchasing power retention is done by the algorithm,
1:00:28
not by a discretionary allocator.
1:00:32
But financial services, I still think will be needed.
1:00:36
So people who are figuring out,
1:00:39
okay, well, this is what I want to retire with,
1:00:41
or this is my will,
1:00:42
or you’re still going to be buying and selling Bitcoin for real estate perhaps
1:00:49
or for other equities perhaps, or maybe there might be something else you’re doing.
1:00:53
So there’s that.
1:00:54
Yeah, sure, actually.
1:00:55
There’ll be just like slightly different sets of financial services in the future, in my opinion.
1:01:00
But yeah, good question in terms of volume.
1:01:02
I don’t know.
1:01:03
One would assume that given Bitcoin, at least thus far in my experience,
1:01:08
has performed better than any discretionary financial advisor could ever dream of,
1:01:13
the heavy lifting will be done by Bitcoin itself for personal finance.
1:01:21
And how you choose to interact with it in and around that will then be
1:01:25
depending on how sophisticated you are or not,
1:01:27
or equally how much Bitcoin you actually have.
1:01:31
Because even within Bitcoin, you could have multi-sig, single-sig.
1:01:37
you could be with a custodian you could be someone like anchor watch and pay a percent per annum and
1:01:43
haven’t insured or you know any nut or you could be getting collateral with someone who knows there’s
1:01:49
going to be tons of different ways of of allocating your bitcoin or storing your bitcoin and that will
1:01:54
all require specific expertise um yeah that’s the amazing thing because all these things are being
1:02:02
built now and yeah i don’t know how anyone can be can’t be just unbelievably bullish yeah it’s so
1:02:10
so amazing seeing the stuff coming out and what what block and square are doing it’s just that’s
1:02:17
cool isn’t it like you can now spend dollars over bitcoin that’s just yeah yeah and it’s yeah so the
1:02:26
merchant adoption one’s a good one so the square payment terminal is used by four million merchants
1:02:32
yeah i can’t remember if that’s a global stat or a u.s stat it’s that’s just u.s that’s just the u.s
1:02:40
interesting and so the two businesses local to me that i’m friendly with the owners of
1:02:46
um this was interesting actually they both use square one of them is a butcher and one of them
1:02:53
a cafe and the butcher already has a wallet of satoshi bitcoin wallet set up and is very happy to
1:03:01
receive bitcoin for meat which i often do but was concerned because they’re already they’re
1:03:08
already treading a fine line with the government in terms of rearing regenerative and organic beef
1:03:14
and pushing back on animal vaccinations and things what if they accept bitcoin via square
1:03:21
and their accounting purposes somehow like flags them.
1:03:27
And they were concerned about if I use Square’s Bitcoin feature,
1:03:32
will that somehow pop up with the government somewhere
1:03:35
and just gives me unnecessary attention?
1:03:39
So that was a really interesting point in terms of the Square merchant adoption.
1:03:44
So people just were like,
1:03:45
what if I get extra attention that I don’t want?
1:03:47
And the other one with the cafe, which is much more straightforward,
1:03:50
I was like, didn’t even know it happened.
1:03:53
So yes, the merchant feature that they’ve put out
1:03:57
is, in my opinion, far more exciting
1:04:00
than any strategic Bitcoin reserve announcement
1:04:03
that a government’s making, et cetera,
1:04:05
because it’s genuine product development
1:04:07
and access to market that wasn’t there.
1:04:09
But I wonder how successful it will actually be
1:04:12
given those two, I admit, very anecdotal examples.
1:04:15
But the Bitcoin newsreel goes wild.
1:04:18
but like what actually changes well basically there’s still a huge educational hurdle for
1:04:23
all people involved yeah i think that’s what makes the the cash app integration so
1:04:30
so interesting because you can just you don’t even have to own bitcoin and you can spend
1:04:36
spend dollars and it gets converted to bitcoin on the merchant side can you get cash app in england
1:04:41
you they they pulled out of the uk okay yeah because it’s not in australia not to mind
1:04:48
knowledge anyway yes and that feature is they can now pay a business you can pay a business in
1:04:56
bitcoin using cash app and not having any bitcoin yourself so if your tab is 100 bucks and you’ve
1:05:02
got 100 bucks in your cash app you can click pay in bitcoin and you send 100 cash app does the
1:05:07
transfer themselves and the exchange yeah wow that’s very cool isn’t it and so because obviously
1:05:14
jack dorsey owns both cash app have the map of where all square merchants that accept bitcoin
1:05:22
are located yes so in cash app you can see where you can spend bitcoin you can go there and support
1:05:28
them and convince others to get on the on the map wow if you don’t have bitcoin the merchant
1:05:35
say you’re just a normal cash app user but you’re at a bitcoin accepting merchant they could say oh
1:05:41
how do you want to pay um if you pay in bitcoin slightly cheaper for us so we might give you a
1:05:47
discount not sure if that’s technically legal depending on where you are but obviously they
1:05:52
are going to be charging it’s going to be sent over lightning so it’s going to be basically free
1:05:56
rather than paying three five percent for your credit card networks take yeah well yeah so if
1:06:02
you have cash out but you have no bitcoin you’d be like okay i’ll pay over cash out then with
1:06:06
bitcoin even though i don’t have any bitcoin so you can get normal people spending dollars
1:06:11
and the merchant accepts bitcoin and i don’t know i just think like the domino effect of something
1:06:18
like that could be could be huge huge yeah it makes me think actually where from what you’ve
1:06:25
explained about the bitcoin collective this is exactly the kind of thing that you’d be good
1:06:29
advisors on for people it’s like okay well look really easy low-hanging fruit for any business
1:06:34
is say that you accept Bitcoin,
1:06:37
get yourself posted on this particular network
1:06:40
and see if you get people turning up.
1:06:43
Example that happened just today for me,
1:06:45
actually, a shout out to Sam, who’s my boxing coach.
1:06:48
He’s just setting up his boxing,
1:06:50
physical boxing gym for the first time,
1:06:52
having done it as like a roaming boxing coach
1:06:56
from his car for a couple of years.
1:06:58
And I’m like, you should just say on your website,
1:07:01
I accept Bitcoin and sign up for whichever,
1:07:04
a Bitcoin map is relevant for where we are.
1:07:09
Because people who like spending Bitcoin will come to your business.
1:07:12
It’s like a whole marketplace of people out there that are looking to support other businesses
1:07:16
that use it. And when you hear things like what you’ve just described with Cash App,
1:07:20
that’s just now just a ton more people that are looking at this stuff.
1:07:24
Wow, interesting. Alex, just to take a slight change
1:07:28
of direction here, I’m always interested in
1:07:31
like how things feel.
1:07:34
So the process of adopting sound money,
1:07:40
of which Bitcoin is,
1:07:42
it very clear when you start digging into the kind of economics behind why it gives you a better outlook on the future and the ability to lower your time preference and things like delayed gratification you know actually actually living
1:08:00
those things like how different is your life in terms of how you feel and your future now versus
1:08:08
maybe five years ago or pre-bitcoin and like first running down the rabbit hole
1:08:13
yeah um have you seen the video posted by relay i don’t know how you actually say it
1:08:21
the swiss exchange relay i i had um had a guy from relay on what the hell was his name
1:08:27
i can’t remember that’s so bad do you know the video i mean though it’s like
1:08:34
no I’m going to look it up quickly
1:08:36
excuse me for a second
1:08:43
I’m normally really good with names
1:08:45
how can I not remember
1:08:46
he had a book called crypto assets
1:08:49
that I started reading
1:08:50
Thomas that’s right
1:08:57
okay shout out to Thomas for every
1:08:59
years I still haven’t finished
1:09:01
this book there’s just too many
1:09:03
to read thomas yeagers yeah he just joined as a cfo relay is probably the most interesting european
1:09:09
bitcoin business i know of um i didn’t invest in it or anything but it’s something i looked at
1:09:15
um anyway sorry so relay have a video that’s what you’re referring to yes they they put out a video
1:09:21
in the last couple of weeks it’s just a short little video on x um all created in ai i think
1:09:28
but it’s just like life with bitcoin and life without and it’s kind of got a side by side of
1:09:33
two people well the same person living the same life going to work coming home but one is with
1:09:41
bitcoin one is without and the person without bitcoin is just thinking they’re miserable they’re
1:09:47
going to work they’re tired they’re getting home they’re thinking about bills they’re working late
1:09:51
because they’re worried about money and they’re worried about getting fired and whatever it is
1:09:56
the person who’s living with their sort of world backed by bitcoin just goes to work does what they
1:10:03
need to do goes out goes with goes out with their friends does something fun has a nice dinner goes
1:10:09
home and just i think that sums it up perfectly because it just it’s not about you find bitcoin
1:10:17
bitcoin and then you’re rich it’s just a slow mental shift where you’re not constantly worried
1:10:27
and stressed about money and i think that’s how it’s been for me so obviously my generation find
1:10:37
it it’s very difficult to get onto the property ladder i think it’s about four and a half times
1:10:44
couple salaries for the average house price in the UK in the UK that’s combined couple salary
1:10:50
yeah fuck yeah it’s crazy isn’t it yeah so it’s just insane and then you’re you’re kind of taught
1:11:00
as you’re growing up you need to get onto the property ladder that’s what everyone’s saying
1:11:05
and again I kind of think that’s just another thing that people don’t question that they should
1:11:11
it’s like why why are we just buying properties why do we all have to
1:11:15
like is property just going up because we’re all just buying it like sheep
1:11:20
but anyway that’s kind of a side point but it’s it’s very difficult so i think a lot of my
1:11:28
generation and the younger generation as well they’re just quite nihilistic and there isn’t
1:11:33
a lot of hope so you’re just sort of living day to day it’s very hard to try and build something
1:11:41
and progress up any sort of ladder whether that’s financial stability whether whether that’s a job
1:11:48
um and for me it’s just been that that sort of breathing space where i don’t need to
1:11:55
panic so much about money i just i’m sit i’m stacking bitcoin everything i save is bitcoin
1:12:04
i don’t really hold fiat currency at all and it just makes life so much easier i don’t need to
1:12:10
think about the price of bread or anything like that it’s just gradually life just gets a little
1:12:18
bit easier if you carry on working and saving and it means i mean for me one of the things that kind
1:12:27
of helped make the decision easier about leaving my previous job was that work seemed to be
1:12:34
encroaching on my personal life and i think that that’s becoming more of a thing these days as well
1:12:39
where you’re trying to be the company you work for wants to tell you where you need to be
1:12:44
how you should work in the most efficient way when actually in many ways that’s a personal
1:12:52
thing that you need to work out how you work in the most efficient way and so it was kind of in
1:13:00
the stage where it’s like right people need to start coming back into the office five days a
1:13:04
week that sort of thing and for me I was thinking this isn’t gonna this isn’t the life I’m gonna be
1:13:09
able to be happy with i don’t want to be sat in an office five days a week being less productive
1:13:15
than working say three days a week in an office and two days at home and ultimately i i want to
1:13:25
have a dog which is a really random thing but like it’s something i want like but i’m not gonna be
1:13:30
able to do that if both me and my girlfriend are working full-time in offices and so without
1:13:37
bitcoin i would have had to just suck it up and do all those things i feel like but with bitcoin
1:13:43
it’s been able to be like it’s given me the um confidence to say no to certain things and push
1:13:52
back on things i don’t believe in and just have a bit more autonomy which i think is really
1:13:58
important for everyone to be able to have awesome yeah and it’s it’s we’ve been recording for an
1:14:07
hour and 14 minutes and that set of statements that you just made were the most powerful of the
1:14:14
conversation so far that’s why i love long form podcasts it’s like it all makes sense when you
1:14:19
hear that essentially it’s helping give you additional options that enable you to be able
1:14:26
to say no i’m not doing that fuck off yeah and that is very very healthy for everyone like not
1:14:36
just from a perspective of self-worth, but also like the life you get to build yourself.
1:14:42
It’s like, what do you want to create?
1:14:44
Okay, well, now you might be able to have that chance.
1:14:48
I think it’s really important as well, this idea of like Bitcoin’s not a get rich quick
1:14:53
scheme.
1:14:54
And that’s been pounded down by the price action at the moment as well, which people
1:14:59
are like, oh, we thought we’d like probably twice as high.
1:15:02
That was conservative in some people’s eyes.
1:15:04
but it’s actually like
1:15:07
if you can show me a way
1:15:09
that I can put my head down
1:15:12
be productive
1:15:14
keep what’s mine
1:15:16
and it compounds over time
1:15:18
I’ll choose that
1:15:20
I don’t need like
1:15:22
crazy crypto gains in two years
1:15:25
to then live in the Bahamas
1:15:26
and sail a yacht around the world
1:15:28
I don’t need that
1:15:30
I just need to know there’s a way of actually
1:15:32
surviving to then have like essentially focus on thriving which is what this is really all about
1:15:38
um and so Alex so to ask then how many of your friends have been through this journey that you
1:15:47
just described of going from like quite well I don’t you didn’t say you were nihilist it yourself
1:15:53
I’m not going to put that on you but you described many people of your generation being like that
1:15:58
when you say how you feel do people get encouraged by that or do they get more like triggered by it
1:16:07
but that can’t be true yeah it’s interesting because i think a lot a lot of my friends they
1:16:13
just don’t want to hear about it wow i think what they prefer to be broke and in the pub pissed and
1:16:22
angry well for me when i was before bitcoin i just felt a bit hopeless i kind of thought
1:16:30
like life is going to be what it’s going to be and
1:16:34
yeah it’s kind of a rigged game against you but and i think some of my friends see it see the world
1:16:43
like that and i don’t know exactly what they think but i think they just think every time
1:16:50
they hear bitcoin they just think oh like gambler like i want to stick to my safe investments because
1:16:56
you’re actually just irresponsible and i’m annoyed that it’s paid off for you
1:17:00
i think that’s probably more closer to what they think because
1:17:06
they’re like they’re now they’re now envious of the success and pigeonhole it as your luck
1:17:14
rather than potentially something that they could do.
1:17:20
It’s interesting, isn’t it?
1:17:21
Because there’s two types of people in a way.
1:17:23
There’s people that go, huh, success leaves clues.
1:17:28
Hmm.
1:17:29
Maybe I should just ask them how they did that
1:17:31
rather than being like, oh, fuck them.
1:17:35
They’re lucky.
1:17:36
You know what I mean?
1:17:37
It’s so interesting.
1:17:38
Why are people like that?
1:17:39
I don’t know.
1:17:40
But I think the thing about Bitcoin
1:17:42
is that people are just so it’s so ingrained in what they think that bitcoin is probably
1:17:49
scam adjacent or there’s something off about it and so they just don’t want to hear it so they
1:17:55
think you have just been at the casino and you’ve come out um you’ve come out um on top but if i do
1:18:04
that i’m probably not going to so like i just need to just ignore what you’re doing because
1:18:09
you are lucky like whatever whatever happened it worked for you but it’s not going to happen for me
1:18:15
because it’s it’s something i don’t understand and i’m very scared of and the i don’t understand
1:18:21
phrase is always interesting because like okay can you explain to me how fiat currency works
1:18:24
yeah how does the debt-based system function what’s fractional reserve banking what leave me alone
1:18:34
you fucking weirdo but that does that’s this is the most retarded explanation as to why you
1:18:42
wouldn’t look at something is i don’t understand it but i don’t understand an iphone works i don’t
1:18:46
understand how an internal combustion engine works i understand how tons of stuff actually works but i
1:18:51
use it every day and even that annoys people when you talk to them about it it’s a very very
1:18:57
interesting time because at some stage the more that you learn about bitcoin like what
1:19:04
first of all the more you know the more you buy that’s like a clear trend that i see in absolutely
1:19:09
everyone within the space the more you learn the more you buy the more you wish you’d bought earlier
1:19:14
is also like people today at like 95 000 us dollars are gonna absolutely hate themselves for
1:19:21
not buying more in the not too distant future now what is that two years three years i don’t know
1:19:26
but suddenly that’s going to look really cheap um what’s interesting though is at some point
1:19:33
that general angst that you described that’s going to be a problem because a population is
1:19:42
going to see this subset who they’re going to consider lucky or have been to the casino and
1:19:48
i can’t go there become wealthier and wealthier more and more independent happier and happier is a
1:19:56
trend i’ve also seen more and more kids as well like people having big families again because they
1:20:00
can actually think like oh i can plan for that now i can afford it and they’re going to be really
1:20:05
pissed off and democracy functions as a popularity contest so i wonder i wonder like is is it going
1:20:14
to be a case of like all right bitcoin’s now part of um you know the u.s in particular is leading
1:20:20
the charge i think in terms of its its policy frankly so you know there’s very clear precedent
1:20:26
around code as free speech in the US.
1:20:30
And therefore, like actually censoring Bitcoin
1:20:32
is going to be pretty hard
1:20:33
and they’re getting better at ingratiating Bitcoin miners
1:20:35
and all this kind of stuff going on.
1:20:38
But aren’t there going to be tons of American voters
1:20:41
that are really pissed off with a subset of Bitcoiners
1:20:43
that have done very well?
1:20:45
And the same would be said in Australia or the UK
1:20:47
or any other place.
1:20:48
How do you think that might play out?
1:20:51
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve had the conversations
1:20:53
with non-Bitcoiners about this
1:20:56
because when I’ve been talking to people
1:21:00
about how eventually Bitcoin could become the world currency,
1:21:04
they’re like, oh, but then certain people
1:21:07
will just have all of the Bitcoin
1:21:08
and will the government then take from them
1:21:13
and redistribute it.
1:21:14
It’s like, no, that’s not how it works.
1:21:19
Wow, so someone actually said that to you?
1:21:21
Yeah.
1:21:21
it was uh yeah and i just think that it’s the whole mind shift like people are thinking people
1:21:29
think like okay someone works hard and they create a lot of value and there’s money in the system and
1:21:34
it’s okay for it to be distributed against the person who created its will people just think
1:21:42
that that’s fine and personally i i don’t think that’s fine i think there’s issues with capitalism
1:21:50
that people can get unbelievably wealthy and it’s maybe not healthy but it’s i believe in property
1:21:57
rights and people having the things that they’ve worked for and yeah i just think it yeah it will
1:22:06
be a very messy shift because especially in the uk it’s people are thinking people are not thinking
1:22:14
about property rights and you’ve worked hard for this so that’s fine or you’ve decided to buy
1:22:21
bitcoin at the very early days when it was risky you’ve taken that risk and it’s paid off it’s
1:22:27
oh that’s unfair well i should get some of that now because how am i going to survive
1:22:33
and it’s a really hard one this isn’t it so alex i am i’m conscious of time do you have another 10
1:22:42
minutes or so yeah yeah cool okay let’s we’ll wrap it up after this but so i was born in the uk
1:22:49
school uni everything left when i was 24 lived in singapore for a four or five years almost i was
1:22:56
away for back to london for a bit then moved to australia because my wife’s ossy so in the last
1:23:02
15 years i haven’t really been in the uk very much um but i still have family back there and
1:23:10
I’m involved in a number of bits and pieces that mean that I’m still very
1:23:14
interested and also invested in the UK.
1:23:18
And in something that came up particular recently was the inheritance tax and
1:23:22
managing some stuff between my brother, my sister, my mom, 40%.
1:23:26
So at death, the British government takes 40% of someone’s stuff.
1:23:33
What?
1:23:34
Now, interestingly, Australia is zero.
1:23:36
There’s no inheritance tax in Australia currently.
1:23:38
that might change of course any of this stuff could change um and and in in the uk you can
1:23:46
you know you can use things like trusts to navigate from a more tax efficient perspective
1:23:53
like assets from generation to generation but it’s still like it’s it’s extraordinary
1:23:59
how much people are taxed and i believe that the uk right now has the highest per capita
1:24:07
quantity of millionaires leaving the country so total volume yeah most are going out of china
1:24:15
you know they’re pilfering what they can out of the communist state and getting the hell out
1:24:19
fair enough but in the same sense it’s happening in the uk a place of 65 million people 70 million
1:24:26
people whatever it is now um what what keeps you in england at this stage in your life when you’re
1:24:33
looking at things like this but like you believe in property rights you believe in being more
1:24:37
productive you’ve now got a sound money that you know is going to be yours in the future
1:24:41
um are you concerned about how things are going and what is it like there
1:24:46
yeah it’s uh so i was in london at the weekend with my girlfriend and
1:24:52
she is definitely more positive has a more positive outlook about things whereas i’m like
1:24:57
this is a bit of a dump and uh but we came home and she’s like yeah london’s really gone downhill
1:25:04
wow and she she actually works there um in the week but at the weekend it was kind of quite
1:25:12
eye-opening we were sat in a pub in voxel which is not not a terrible area as far as i’m aware i
1:25:19
mean i don’t know london that well but we’re sat in a nice pub see a biker gang go down the street
1:25:24
with black hockey masks it’s just like what is this place it’s insane how much it’s deteriorating
1:25:31
and yeah the taxes are just going crazy labor are just destroying everything and people do want to
1:25:40
leave personally i i would i’d love to leave i’d love to go live in portugal or somewhere like that
1:25:47
i’ve always had an issue living in the uk because the sort of um leisure activities don’t really
1:25:55
appeal to me i want to be up going up mountains and going skiing and going to the beach and things
1:26:02
like that so it’s always been a struggle for me from that point of view um but now that
1:26:07
yeah now that there are other opportunities because of bitcoin and being a sort of
1:26:15
money that you can take with you anywhere and sort of
1:26:20
yeah it gives you that more gives you that flexibility it definitely makes me want to leave
1:26:27
but at the same time i need to uh save some more stack some more sats before i can
1:26:35
fair enough i i have every confidence that if you chose to pick up and go then you could
1:26:42
and the cool thing that you’ve already taught me in this conversation is like you know you’re
1:26:47
willing to take risks you’re willing to say i was wrong about something you’re willing to actually
1:26:51
like put yourself out there those are all like critical factors to help make a big move if you
1:26:58
were to choose to do that and equally the more content you create the more you work for a bitcoin
1:27:03
business the more bitcoin you stack you are in a sense digitally native like you’re not selling
1:27:08
coffees in a coffee shop you’re not running a factory somewhere you’re not like physically
1:27:11
be tied to an office which has got you on this crazy employment contract it’s like actually
1:27:15
you could probably do what you’re doing for bitcoin collective from lisbon and fly back to
1:27:21
london when you need to be there um i’m not saying that will happen but yeah interesting
1:27:26
yeah it’s very hard to know what’s real in some ways you know that the the newspaper headlines
1:27:34
will say oh this is going on and this is so bad and blah blah blah blah and you’re like
1:27:37
is it you know and as soon as you put your phone down you walk outside everything’s pretty chill
1:27:43
yeah you know what i mean it’s like it’s it’s it’s not actually that crazy i mean obviously seeing
1:27:50
um i used to do in brixton actually so i know voxel quite well you wouldn’t have had dudes on
1:27:56
fucking mopeds with masks on driving around 10 years ago when i used to live there no fucking way
1:28:00
so that that’s definitely a change but but isn’t this also you know as part of this bitcoin research
1:28:07
that we’ve all done.
1:28:08
This is the fourth turning.
1:28:10
This is what happens when you live on a lie
1:28:13
for like 50 plus years
1:28:15
when people are able to print their own money.
1:28:17
There’s no more goods and services in the system.
1:28:19
They’re just more monetary units
1:28:20
and no one’s salary keeps up with the speed
1:28:23
that they print them at.
1:28:24
So everyone’s getting poorer.
1:28:26
And as a result, crime rises.
1:28:28
It’s really simple.
1:28:29
It doesn’t make sense to go to work any longer
1:28:31
because you’re going to tax me
1:28:32
on the official income that I make.
1:28:34
That means that my real wages are worse
1:28:36
than what they were a year ago.
1:28:37
or five years ago.
1:28:38
And it’s unsurprising that people turn to nihilism,
1:28:42
for example, as a mindset.
1:28:44
Our big challenge, though, in some ways,
1:28:47
as people who’ve gone down the Bitcoin rabbit hole
1:28:49
is to bring people with us in a way that meets them
1:28:55
where they’re at and doesn’t alienate them
1:28:58
from the future potential.
1:29:01
So I personally believe that the benefits
1:29:03
that we’ve seen thus far, like past performance,
1:29:05
It’s not guarantee a future performance that we haven’t even got going really.
1:29:10
And so if you jumped on the Bitcoin bandwagon now,
1:29:12
what you’ll see over the next five years will be even better than what’s
1:29:15
happened in the last five years.
1:29:16
But people need to make that step and you can’t do that for them.
1:29:21
So yeah, it’s a very interesting time, isn’t it?
1:29:24
Well, Alex, thank you so much for your time today.
1:29:26
I would love to just open it up to,
1:29:29
is there anything else that we haven’t touched on that you would like to
1:29:32
mention or or any anything that resonated that you want to mention uh no i don’t think so yeah
1:29:38
awesome well thank you so much for coming on and joining the podcast i really appreciate it and
1:29:44
love learning from people um thanks for having me i’m gonna i’m gonna make a shout out to
1:29:49
is it the big boss bear yes have i remembered that correctly i thought i’d better go and check
1:29:55
my telegram but yeah who contacted me and said jake you should have a chat with alex on on the
1:30:00
podcast so appreciate you getting us in touch thanks mate um final question is where can people
1:30:06
reach out and get in touch if they want to get um if they want to contact you um i’m on x and youtube
1:30:12
uh it’s just alex glass i think okay awesome and i’ll pop that in the show notes no worries
1:30:19
well alex thanks so much for your time today nice one thanks jake my pleasure thank you